Winning Against RA Challenges – An Interview With Ana
Ana and Clint discuss:
- How workouts at the gym or at home can be simple and successful at eliminating pain
- How Ana normalised her Anti-CCP marker
- Eating out at restaurant tips
- Traveling Tips
- Eating plantains for weight gain
- The common missing link when trying to add muscle
- Stress control for maximum progress
- Combating hair loss while on Methotrexate
- Motivation factors to keep making progress
Clint My guest today is Ana, and she’s in El Salvador, and she has a great story of progress with her rheumatoid arthritis. She got diagnosed 12 months ago and it started out quite aggressively, and we’re going to hear about that in a moment. She’s been able to reduce her Methotrexate, she follows the Paddison Program, and she’s going to share about the most important aspects of the Paddison Program that she’s found to get the results that she has so far on her journey. Which is still in development but it’s very encouraging. So thanks Ana for coming on today.
Ana You’re welcome. Clint, thank you.
Clint So let’s get straight into it. Talk about how this began for you, where you started to get symptoms?
Ana Okay, I started the symptoms on my knees, but the knees were not rheumatoid arthritis it was osteoarthritis. And then like a couple of months later, you know, I started getting a pain in my wrist and then it got swollen. So I went to the doctor again and says, he saw a pattern you know, he had me take the test. And then the results when they came, you know, I got the shocking news, which to me was very, very, very hard at the beginning. But I said, you know, I’m going to fight this no matter what. And. Yeah.
Clint And did they put you on to the Methotrexate immediately?
Ana No, I did not. Because, you know, I wanted to fight it in a natural way, so I said no. And, you know, I started searching, and that’s when I stumble upon, you know, the Paddison Program. And so, you know, at the beginning it was more difficult because I was in Finland at that moment and my doctors in El Salvador. And so, you know, I started the program with no medicine at all, not even pain medicine. And, I couldn’t move my wrist, and I guess with the cold weather and everything, you know, it was even worse. And so, I waited a couple of like three months until I finally started with the Methotrexate to help myself out at the beginning.
Clint When we’re highly inflamed which can be the case shortly after diagnosis as the disease is still trying to find its place and it tends to kind of snowball. It did in my case, it got really bad, really quick. When we try natural interventions, even if, they’re well researched and worked for everyone else, sometimes it can be still too hard to pull back that cascade of inflammation. And one of our non-negotiable is to have low pain levels all the time, low inflammation. And so in those scenarios, like you found even when you were doing the right things right from the start essentially you still needed the medication to provide that inflammation reduction. So that then things calmed down and you also buy yourself a lot more time as you’re not panicking, you’re not worried, and you’re not in pain. To be able to work on the healing on the inside, and build a pattern, and a habit around this big change of lifestyle, which it is.
Ana It is definitely. And, you know, everything I guess when you’re in a lot of pain and inflammation and you can’t move. And sometimes you don’t have people to help you out at that moment or maybe even if it’s within your family and friends, you know, it’s hard for them to understand the level of pain. Because nobody can understand and nobody, only the people that are in the same situation. So I found the Paddison Program to be fabulous in that way because, you know, we’re all on the same boat. And so we understand and we share our experiences, and, you know, even when you have doubts about medication. I remember asking you, and I remember you told me, you know, to get on the medications so I could get the inflammation down because I had some nodules on my left wrist, I don’t have any now. So they are completely gone, and also the inflammation I had on my right wrist. And I didn’t have any movement, and I completely can move it now. And I have been very strict with the program.
Clint And how much of the reduction of the inflammation do you feel came from the changes through the program? And how much were you able to get some relief from the drug?
Ana Well, I would think that that the food has more to do than the medication itself. I started with the Methotrexate at the beginning of February, and then the program I started last November. So it’s going to be a year, so right now it’s eleven months. And so I think I have come a long way because, you know, before I was diagnosed I went he gym three hours. And then I had to cut it down completely, you know because I couldn’t lift anything. And now I’m not saying that I can lift the lot, but I can do at least 5, 10 pounds or eight pounds, depending on, you know, the level of pain that I’m in that moment. I do all the rest of the stuff, and, you know, I like to work out also walk a lot. And then, you know, the stationary bike, and I have not been doing yoga. I haven’t found the Bikram yoga here in El Salvador. They do have yoga, but since I was in pain, you know, I couldn’t do all the, you know, the poses. So I decided to stick to the two walking and, you know, the gym and it has worked.
Clint Absolutely. I love the gym, it’s my preferred place to go to stay as well as I can be. I go to Bikram at the moment, because I really damaged my left knee again, which has a lot of pre-existing damage from all of the inflammation that was in it many years ago. So I’m using a lot of yoga at the moment, but I definitely preferred to go to the gym and there’s so much that you can do at the gym. Whether it be a stationary bike or an elliptical or rowing machine for the cardiovascular side of things. And then you can also go and lift some weights as you do and build up some muscle. Not just, you know, the classic kind of bicep, tricep, chest sort of stuff. But what we really want to work on is the connective tissue where those big muscles connect to the bones at the joint. Because they are the ones that get inflamed. The tendinitis that can happen at the joint is where so much of inflammation and pain comes from in that in these major joints. And we often think that that’s rheumatoid arthritis or synovitis, but it’s not. It is tendinitis, and it’s just because of damage to maybe micro-damage to the joint or significant damage to the joint. The damage gets twisted when we sleep or when we move it in a way that It doesn’t like. The tendons get a little inflamed, and then we don’t use the joint because it feels a bit uncomfortable. But an inflamed or tendinitis joint responds well to suitable exercise, its blood flow, it’s causing attention to that soft tissue.
Clint So, you know, especially my elbows, they’re always wanting to develop low-grade tendinitis. And so the gym is just the best place for me with these elbows. And just by lifting sensible weights within my comfort zone, I can keep it at bay, and yeah I’m all for it. And if people are unable to go to the gym, they can get elastic bands and these things called tubes that they can buy on elastic tubes with handles on the end on Amazon, and they’re a great way to exercise at home. So we should always be moving our body just as you’ve found it so helpful for yourself.
Ana Yeah, the elastic band work wonderful, I also use them. Especially when you travel because that’s the equivalent to some weights, you know. And so I’ve found is so practical.
Clint Absolutely and they’re so inexpensive. So for I think seven dollars or something you can buy a group of five different resistance level elastic bands on Amazon, and you can put a knot in them and attach them, close the door, so the knots on the other side and you’ve got to work out at home. And Melissa, my wife has been telling me, you know, I need to do some videos on that. So we’re gonna be doing some videos on that soon. So, yeah, different ways to work, different muscles and keep this tendinitis low, which I’m so certain plays a much greater role in the major joint inflammation than what we all appreciate because inflammation is not all synovitis. In fact, so often it’s a lot of tendonitis and only a little synovitis, which is much more treatable by ourselves at home or at the gym. So that’s great, love hearing that. Now you’re still in the stage where you’re making improvements and you one year in, you said to me before we connected to do this that, you know, you’ve you still working a long way to go. You’ve been able to reduce your dose of Methotrexate. How did that consultation go with the rheumatologists? How was the discussion?
Ana Well, you know, he was very surprised. And, you know, sadly, you know, I saw him in August and I hadn’t visited him for three months because, you know, I was in Finland. So when I came, you know, I went in with the exams, and they came out negative. You know, all of my tests came clear, clean. And so he was in shock because, you know, he was because hardly he passed away like three weeks ago. So now I have to find a new rheumatologist, which is going to be kind of a I don’t know if hard. I already have the name of one, but, you know, it’s starting like all over again. So he was in shock, he was an old rheumatologist who happened to be my father’s friend. So that’s why I looked for him and he had seen me before because I also had fibromyalgia, I’ve had it for 25 years, more or less. So, yeah. So I deal with a lot of… So I don’t know life without pain.
Ana But, you know, life has to go on and that you know. So he was in a shock because he was like a very conventional let’s say put it that way. And so he said the food has nothing to do with it. And, you know, when I came to see him in August, he said, well, I don’t know what you’re doing, but it’s working because, you know, he was in a shock. He says, I just can’t believe you were your test results. And so, you know, and that’s that you know, that I have I’ve had a lot of stress for the past months. And that doesn’t help. I keep going with the food and, you know, exercising and it’s so hard with the food, you know. But I guess you get used to it.
Clint Yeah. Just to us, specific to the doctor’s visit, your anti-CCP came out back to normal. So you’ve taken those antibodies which were showing up when you were first diagnosed back to normal. So that’s a phenomenal result. No wonder he was surprised. We see this from time to time. It’s not terribly common. You’ll see reactive protein, your SED rate came back normal. Everything was normal, no anaemia. And therefore, obviously, you know, like he said, what you’re doing is working really well. But it’s particularly fantastic that the antibodies came back and normalized, which is which is sensational. So he lowered your Methotrexate a little bit. What I’m wondering is how did the fibromyalgia respond to the dietary changes and how do you balance that with your exercise, too? Because fibromyalgia, clients who have communicated with me in the past say they find it difficult with exercise because the muscles hurt. So can you speak on that?
Ana Well, you know, I always before rheumatoid arthritis, I have always led my life perfectly normal, even with the pain. You know, I just learned to live with it. And, you know, sometimes when people tell me, you know, I have migraines, so I’m not going to go, so I’ll cancel plans, for example, I just can’t understand because we know what pain is. And so I guess, you know, the fibromyalgia has also the food change has also helped. And, you know, I’ve always been I’ve never been fat. I’ve always been thin, you know. But I have been pretty much a junkie with the food, you know, is so changing, you know, not being able to have my Doritos or something like that was kind of at the beginning, you know, and now, you know, I used to love hamburgers and the French fries and stuff like that, which I think most people in the program. And I think the hard part is not the gym, you know, because I did that the three hours at the gym with the fibromyalgia. And so I think for me, the most difficult part has been, you know, when you when you meet with other people and you go out to eat, I think that’s the challenge for all of us. You know that I have changed our dietary habits.
Clint Yeah, no doubt about it. The eating out at restaurants, eating out at cafes is the greatest challenge and the social connectedness and the association with groups and eating is so strong. And so, you know, when we have that, particularly, we’re quite social people and we like to do that frequently as our way of spending time with friends, then that is definitely a challenge. And for the first few months, you know, I think it’s best to avoid eating out at all just because, you know, it’s an absolute minefield and you almost can’t put a step down onto the grass without landing on a mine. So, yeah, there’s so many oils and particularly the oils that are used in cafes and restaurants and even vegan ones, plant based cafes. And it’s just laden with oil.
Ana Yeah. Yeah. I just think it’s not only that point. Let’s say I can go to a cafe and I always you know, I have my I bag some biscuits, very small ones. So, you know, they’re oat, they’re made from oats, so, you know, I always carry a little bag with them when I go to a cafe. So I I just make them out, you know, and then the other people don’t feel that bad. You know, that I’m only there. And but, you know, I think it’s the part of explaining to people why you can’t have this and this and that. And then people say, you know, oh, but this is fine just thinking because it’s there, you’re vegan, then everything is fine. So the oil part that people don’t just don’t get it. Even if you eat at home and you’re surrounded by people, they just don’t understand that it’s the oil, how much it causes the pain.
Clint It blows people’s minds. It’s almost like it’s silly you saying that, you know, that we’re not on a planet that’s rotating around the sun. They just it’s like it’s not humanly possible for you not to be able to eat oil or want to eat oil or think that oil is good for you. Such is the power of that misconception. And so, you know, yeah, we have to battle that. That’s one of the challenges. And it makes you less inclined with time to want to spend time with people who don’t understand because it gets so old explaining this over and over again to people. And then you also kind of find a little bit annoying to watch people sit and eat disgusting foods that, you know, is terrible for their health. And yet somehow they don’t seem to get any serious symptoms from having it other than maybe some indigestion that night. And it’s hard to relate to when people can eat whatever they want and seem not to have a problem, at least tonight or tomorrow.
Clint And we’re working as hard as we can just to have normal life, you know?
Clint You travel a lot to Finland. Tell us about that. How you managed to travel on a restrictive diet. I love your little tip about the little oat cookies. That’s great. Any other insights you can share about traveling?
Ana Well, you know, when I travel, you know, since it’s such a long flight. I mean, it’s you know, it’s exhausting because I have to change. Well, you two, when you fly from Australia, you’re far away. So it’s a for me to feel and it’s that I have to change three planes. And, you know, I never manage to get a direct flight like from Miami to Finland. So, you know, just stopping in the U.S. all the time.
Ana And sometimes I only get short connections. But the thing is that I have learned to travel. You know, I packed my salad and so far have had no issues in customs or anything. And then, you know, since I know I’m going to have breakfast, at least, you know, I even travel well, you know, I have my oats and then I have my meal. I also, you know, in those traveling bottles for the shampoo and conditioner. So I have managed to put my oat milk in there. And so I pack two bottles of those and then I asked for a cup like the water cup that you get it in the airlines. So then I put my old oats there and, you know, I put my oatmeal there. And I even have like my cinnamon and stuff like that.
Ana So I have managed. So now instead of, you know, my normal handbag, I travel with a backpack with food and you know, so I have this I have managed to make these biscuits very small and they’re very easy to make. And so, you know, and they’re even, you know, very crunchy. And so I put them in the little Ziploc bags, you know, and then I always have them with me in my handbag because, you know, you never know. And I also bag my own muffins for modes. But, you know, with no additives or anything. Of course. And but those are harder at restaurants, you know because you can you can really see the muffin, the biscuits. It’s easier to hideaway. You know, I think some places don’t have any issues. As long as somebody else is ordering something and you’re already ordering a tea or, you know, sometimes I even ask just for lemon water, not even lemonade or here we have these traveling honey packets, just like the tea packets or the coffee packets. So I always, always try to have also my honey with me just in case. So I’m always prepared now, you know because you never know.
Clint I love it. It’s like an adult version of Pack and the kids. (inaudible) And they have the morning tea or the, you know, mid-morning snack and then they have lunch and afternoon snack, all different little containers. That’s what our kids look like when they hit out with a backpack. So it reminds me of that, and I think we worry too much about whether or not the restaurant’s going to care or whatever. I mean, really who we worried about, we’re worried about probably some pimply teenager who’s earning a small amount of money serving your table just for the shift that they’re on. And do they really care that you’re snacking on a small biscuit whilst you’re sitting there and you bought it, bought a lemon tea and your friends are sitting there and paying to eat their meals and, you know, enjoying time at their cafe and you might come back frequently and speak good things about the place.
Clint So we went out to dinner. The other night was my birthday. I turned 44 two days ago and we went out for a birthday. And we went out and we head out, went to the Indian restaurant that we have greenlit and( inaudible). And we went there. And Melissa has lots of little things for the kids. You know, she’s got some cut up tofu pieces and she slots them in front of them beforehand. And what else did she have the other night? Or maybe, you know, some little Mandarin pieces and just keep their energy levels up and keeps their hunger controlled before the food comes out. And that helps their behavior. And no one cares. Well, if anyone cares, they don’t say anything because we’re a family of five. We’re going to have a fairly big bill at the end of the year. Yeah. So. Yeah. So well done. And I think everyone should take note that, you know, if it means that you get out of the house more and it means that you have more social opportunities, then do it. Just pack a little thing on the side and go and do it. Don’t let the concern of whether or not there are rules at the restaurant or not stop us from having a completely necessary social connection with our friends. So I like that a lot.
Ana Yeah. And then you just go in and then if it’s a salad, you just order in the salad and you just say nothing on it. And then that’s it.
Ana And then they’ll ask you about six times. So you want absolutely nothing on it at all. You sure you don’t want some dressing then. Nothing. Or what. What about some cheese. None of that. Nothing. You know, over and over again.
Ana Yeah. That’s right. I just order, you know, a lemon juice on the side, you know, ’cause that’s how…And then, you know, they’re OK. I really haven’t had any issues, you know, at the restaurant that people say you’re weird or something like that. You know, my friend, especially when I’m here, you know, I manage to eat. Sushi, the veggie sushi
Ana So. Yeah. So they know that if we’re going now it’s a Sushi, it’s either salad or sushi. So, you know, people stick with you and then they saw me when I couldn’t move my wrist at all. And now that they see the difference, you know, and you know that the problem that I had was putting gaining some weight. But I think, you know, in this I have been in there somewhere two months. And I think I have gained like five or ten pounds because I was weighing eighty-nine ninety pounds. And I wouldn’t go up from that even if I ate enormous amounts of food. You know, I mean, enormous. You know, my oatmeal in the morning is huge. And with fruit and everything on the side and I still didn’t manage and I guess, you know, I started eating. I don’t know if you have ever tried plantains. Cookie bananas.
Clint Yeah. Yeah, I have tried them. I think I tried them in. I want to save Fiji or somewhere. Yeah, I think I have. Yeah.
Ana Yeah. Cuban dishes. Since you were in Florida, you know, Cuban dishes use them a lot. You know, in Latin America they’re like part of the not every day but you know. Yeah. And so those have helped me gain those extra pounds because nothing fit. You know, Nothing completely fit. And so now, you know, I’m happy, you know, that I even gained five extra pounds.
Clint Yeah, the gym also helps with that. I think it’s very easy for us to just obsess about how we’re eating a lot, we’re not gaining weight. Well, here’s the truth, is that the body will not spontaneously add any more requirement than it needs to. The body is extremely efficient. If the body thinks you’re not lifting any weight, it doesn’t need that muscle. It won’t just spontaneously build muscle. It’s not like we have a predetermined muscle amount that the body will always stick to at all times. It just disregards it if it doesn’t feel that it’s being used. Like if you’ve got a broken leg and the leg gets wrapped up below the knee on the shin, let’s say you break your ankle. I should say, you know, if you get things out of action for six weeks, your calf muscle will look completely disintegrated by the time if you’re getting around on crutches and not using it at all.
Clint And so to build that calf muscle up, if that’s happened on a grand scale across our whole body, because we’ve muscle atrophy, which happens with people with inflammatory arthritis, it’s just muscle atrophy goes hand-in-hand with having the condition. So we actively need to watch out for that and to work against that. And so if we’ve got a grand scale of that, then we got to work those muscles. We have to demand them to grow. And so your gym work obviously goes a long way to demanding that muscle growth and spontaneous muscle growth. If only that were the case, wouldn’t it be easy, wouldn’t have to go and do anything other than just feed yourself and you’d look like Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime, right.
Ana You know, that’s another thing about the muscles. You know, people worry that you’re not like them. We’re not getting enough protein, right? Yeah. So, you know, I think that there is a way you can get the protein from other places, you know, not only from animals.
Clint Oh, yeah. Proteins. The easiest thing of all actually to get. It’s virtually unheard of not to get enough protein if you’re eating enough food that your body needs each day to sustain itself. So, I mean, if you only ate white rice and orange juice all day and you eat enough to sustain yourself, then you’ve actually met your protein requirements. I mean, it’s so hard to avoid getting enough protein. It’s the easiest, easiest macro nutrient of all.
Clint So let’s think. Can you tell me what aspects of the program, whether it be the exercise, one of the dietary components or something else that that goes in parallel, maybe it’s stress reduction or something that you feel it’s really crucial that we need to discuss?
Ana I think stress plays a big role as well. But I think the combination between the food and the exercise, you know, and then you keep a positive mind, I think. I think that helps a lot. You know, that you meditate or some sort of activity that gives you peace, you know, to be, you know, to ground yourself at least once a day. I think that’s the combination. And, you know, I hope to get off the methotrexate you know, I don’t know when. That’s the other part, you know, that I have lost a lot of my hair. And due to that, you know for a woman, it’s kind of a really big issue. So, but I think you can help yourself with that. So I think the disease in itself is so, so tough and you get all these issues, you know, all these side effects of everything. I guess it’s just like cancer. You know, it’s you already have a disease. And on top of that, you have to take medications that make you emotionally feel worse. But like I was I was saying, I think that you have to be positive and just keep a positive mind.
Ana And, you know, I just think I’m going to beat the thing, you know, somehow I’m going to beat it in because, you know, the doctor said that even if the test is negative, that doesn’t mean that we don’t have the disease. It’s just like asleep and sort of. So but I mean, I just want to be completely pain-free and get my hair back, which I have. You know, I have lost a lot of it. And then I’m used to the food now, It’s an automatic now.
Clint Yeah. The hair loss comes because you drew the parallel to cancer. And I’d never really, you know, made the distinct connection that it’s treated exactly like cancer because you’ve got the disease. And then Methotrexate is a cancer drug, right? It’s chemotherapy. Yes. And so although it’s very low dose, I see frequently females getting hair loss. You know, I’ve never seen it with men, as strange as that may seem, I’ve never had a man tell me they’ve lost hair from Methotrexate and yet it comes up with females a lot. The good news is that it does tend to come back and it tends to be sort of a cycle where the hair does go down and the hair thins out, but then it does tend to start to regrow again as if the body works out how to sidestep the medication or something and still develop new hair growth. So take that on board as something to look for and to be optimistic and to look forward to, because I do see that happening and even with that. So what I mean is even on the drugs. So just hang in there and just see how that goes with some luck. That’ll be the pattern that it takes for you, as I’ve seen with other people. Just look for small follicles when you’re in the mirror just for new growth.
Ana I do have some you know, I can see them in the front and, you know, here and then I guess you have to be patient, you know, so many people. Yeah, it is chemotherapy. And even if it’s low dose and I think that the bad part about, you know, the the drug is, you know, I love the sun. And for me, not being able to be in the sun at sun tanning, you know, not in the sun with a 50 sun block, which, you know, for me was outrageous to use a 50 sunblock. But I know I guess now I do. And I really take care of. I’ve read all sorts of things that you can get, really your skin can really get very bad. And in some cases, not in all cases, but just making my self safe. You know, I use the sun block now.
Clint Yeah. I can see you’ve got a few motivators here to try and become as healthy as possible and as asymptomatic as possible so that you need is fewer medications as you need to. You’ve got the hair loss and you’ve also got the desire to get, you know, natural and enjoyable sunlight on your body. So, yes, well what you’re doing, as the doctor said, keep it up. Keep going for it. Sounds like those plantains. That’s a great tip with regards to the weight gain on those particular plant foods. Is there anything else that you’d like to cover before we wrap up and tell us things that have helped you that you do that you think maybe someone else would benefit from.
Ana Well just that, you know, just being positive and then keep the exercise and the motivation, I think.
Ana And even if you have if you go downhill at one point, which I think we all experience, that, you know, there are ups and downs with the pain and not to be discouraged, you know, when we get pain, which will it will happen. And, you know, what I’m trying to do is just do some activity, you know, do some positive something, even if I’m in pain that maybe I pressure myself a lot. And, you know, part of the difficult part for me is, you know, that I’m a graphic designer, so, you know. You know, with the pain. And I also do photography. So for me, it was a, you know, in Finland. Well. Everywhere I take a lot of pictures by, you know, in the summer in Finland, I’d love to take photos of the birds and the dogs because, you know, they migrate and then they have all the nest. And for me, it was a big challenge, you know, from the like last winter, you know, that I could barely move my wrist. You know, I couldn’t carry the camera. I mean, you know, I said, oh, what am I going to do next summer? And I was I was able to do it, you know, with my big lens. And so for me, all those little things, you know, if you have something, in my case, it’s that. But if you’re passionate about something, I think you need to focus on that. And that will, you know, encourage yourself to keep on going. Even if you feel a little pain or that tells you don’t come out like you would have expected. So just keep on going. That’s maybe what I think helps the most.
Clint Mm-hmm. I love it. Things are definitely ups and downs, aren’t they? I mean, I’m about to do it. I’m trying to organize a quick podcast with Katie, who’s been on a couple of times as one of our guests. And what she and I have both found is that when we have wrist stiffness, that whilst that can be a deterrent to wanting to put pressure onto the wrists and hurt and hurt them further, we’ve both found that by actually challenging the wrists when they hurt. And we’re going to clarify that in our discussion, not when they’re inflamed with synovitis, but if they’re just stiff because they’ve spent a lot of time, not with the full range of motion, then these things can be, you know, push through and to slowly become better with time.
Clint So, you know, I completely agree with you. Keep at it. Things change. My dad does always tells me things always change. And what we are today, who we are now and how we feel it’s going to be different, not just tomorrow, but in 12 months’ time. And it does not necessarily have to be in a worse state. Even if we had this condition, we can do things by creating daily habits that set ourselves up for a better body and a better outlook in 12 months. It’s really possible.
Clint So with that, I’d like to thank you for coming to this episode. We’ve had a few delays setting this up and they’ve been all on me, so I apologize. But we’ve managed to make it happen. And I thank you for your really intelligent insights. And I’m sure that people will have got a lot out of this. So. Anna thanks very much. All the best with your photography career. Thanks for being a member of Paddison Program support. Encouraging and helping others. It’s been great to watch how you’ve been going and we’ve got a lot more time together in that platform. So thanks very much for sharing what you’re up to at the moment.
Ana It’s been a pleasure sharing and thank you, Clint, because you have helped all of us. You know, with the program and I think everyone has their little success story, even if it’s little baby steps. You know, I think we have all benefited from your program. So thank you for sharing it with us.
Clint You’re very welcome. Thanks very much.